Trying to put together a policy now to qualify students to play in winter sports is not enough time. If there is no set standard of required courses for home schooled students, how do you compare that to the required courses that high school students take? If a student is absent, they do not participate in the sport that day, how is that determined for home schooling? What if the private school the student attends does not offer a certain sport program, should they be allowed to participate in the public school program? You are correct Clamdigger, athletics and any after school program are extra-curricular activities. When parents make choices for their children's education they need to consider this. A policy needs to be in place before ANY child participates in after school programs.

Yes...private school students should be allowed to avail themselves of the public services they pay for.

You all have it wrong. Its not that the schools arent good enough. Its that the curriculum isnt correct. Kids are bored to death. This is why they lose interest. And the food...are you kidding me?? Our schools should have a garden outside so our children can get some kind of nourishment while they are not home. How about making that a class? Growing food then cooking it. Now thats an idea. Here is a question for you..what is your child's response when you ask them what they learned in school today? Most likely it will be "nothing". So why not educate children to the fullest and make it fun. And as far as sports go every child deserves to play as long as they qualify. If my son's grades are good enough he should play like everybody else.

You make the mistake in submitting to the notion that anyone needs to be watched. Why are so many people so worried about governmnet oversight? What whimps we have become! Shame on us, when we can't allow the children in our community to play a good-natured sports game without some bureaucrat policing every aspect of the games? You want the taxpayers to pay a guy to make sure homeschoolers are homeschooling, so that it is fair to those who don't homeschool? You have to be out of you mind. I pay enough taxes already, thank you very much. Sorry for my tone, and it is not just you. We are so out of hand with government regulations it isn't funny. This is why we are in so much trouble in this country.

"granted some kids are pulled for health reasons, mental,physical, emotional,etc "..I think it is cute how you glossed over this otherwise extremely relevant point. The fact is there are many reasons why some homeschool (and all of them are none of your business). Your inferiority complex does not erase the tax bill those folks pay (they don't get a refund).

I think there was some kind of system error, to be honest with you. A bunch of comments from this morning disappeared for reasons unknown.

It's back now, clam ;)

Clamdigger, I was wondering the same thing!

the Darling public school parents will cheat, lie and steal to get their johnny a spot in a team....the the poor coaches who have to LISTEN to the parents whine....oh do they whiiiiinnnne about their Johnny boy not being the big shot. Public School parents and families are NOTHING to brag about. The home schooled students are welcome any time on any public school team.....what TOTAL misconception and attitude you people have toward others. Obviously products of Public Schools!

Very well said, Clamdigger. ^5

With parents like you, unfortunately the children will be shunned. You forget, it's PUBLIC school. ALL pay toward and ALL benefit. Then, let me guess, these children don't deserve to use the PUBLIC library. Oh, yes, public transportation is only for those that use it every day. Where you get your logic from is baseless and odd. You think that because someone get's up at 5:30 every day they deserve more? I am very confused and don't see what that has to do with anything. Most people don't homeschool because they work all day. And???? The sacrifices these families make you would never be able to live without. New cellphones, DATA plans that cost 30 bucks a month. They aren't dressed in the newest clothes. The parents don't have three or four cars. I have never met one home schooled student that was spoiled and schooled for one hour a day. The definition of prejudiced: an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds, judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims. These children have rights too. The elderly have rights to use the public school if they so chose. They'd require....approval! Just like these kids are getting. You folks just don't understand the usage and purpose of the public school. It IS for even those that don't use it everday. All the public facilities....library etc. are used by ALL.

You are wrong clamdigger. They paid for the school and they should be entitled to use the facility. Many outside organizations use the schools and so should these children. Clamdigger you are NOT a representation of what we stand for. Unity. Togetherness. NO ONE waives that right to play school sports. There is NO SUCH waiver. The whole community does not go to school BUT they are entitled to use of THEIR public school which THEY PAY for. You can petition to use the buildings etc any time. It's a PublIc school. Wow. You are a clown. And a POOR POOR example of the product that comes from a public school. Bad. Please, you do not stand for the rest of us.

Hello skizma; This is not a question of who may or may not use the school building, it is about students who do not attend a particular school being allowed to participate in a school's sports program. I do not believe the should be. I do not represent any one group except my own, this topic has no general impact on my life what so ever but I do not believe parents who choose to home school their children should be allowed to have their children play sports for the school they decide not to send their children to.

You are correct on one thing though, I do not stand for togetherness or unity, I am an individual with my own opinion and do not believe in placating to ideas (or ideals) which I find to be disingenuous.

Also, just to be clear, I am not against home schooling, I give parents who choose this path a lot of credit, but on the other hand, once that choice has been made, they should not be permitted to enroll their children in any of the schools extra-curricular activities. The parents have have made the predetermined choice to keep their children out of the schools, so by that choice they have now live with their own decision whether it be good, bad or indifferent and not expect changes to suit their own needs or desires.

Hello Kat, I appreciate the response. I never meant to imply there is a difference in the education level,I don't doubt home schooler's are at the advantage there. My issue is that parents of the home schooled children have chosen to opt out of all forms of formal education provided by either the state or private institutions. Now this push to allow the students to be entitled to play sports for the school which parents have chosen to bypass is not right IMO. Parents have made the clear choice that formal education and the structure it provides is not right for their children but now it's to be changed to fit some other agenda.

One cannot say this is for the benefit of the kids,because it sends the wrong message that we can pick and choose which rules apply and which do not. If this is a sudden push for children to get a better transcript for college, it's not the right way to go about it.

Ken, Parents would be responsible for the transportation, not the schools. Sports are not a requirement, they are a choice.

Lori that is what I figured and if that is the case than I have no problem with it.

do you know that the lousy spoiled public school kids can FAIL a course or two and still be allowed to play? THAT's what your taxes are paying for. Spoiled, low low level of expectations in the public school. Do you have any idea how BULLY like the parents become when THEIR johnny failed a class and could NOT play? I have see NUMEROUS times where there is some LAME BS reason the coach let's the failure play. What is everyone talking about here? the home school child is a better person from the get go...they absolutely should be allowed to play. And heaven help them as they get a lousy taste of what society has to offer and bring into this world. I wish them the best.

Actually some colleges do not require or even use SAT scores, they use extrance exam testing. Communities colleges and even other colleges including private ones do that.

I can understand the part about physicals for sure. All athletes need to take those to be sure they are fit and capable to play the sport, so I do believe they should need to pass the same requirements there.

I just brought up the part about physicals because it seemed you were questioning it and I was just stating everyone takes them. I have no problem with home school on school teams.

I was just bringing up no matter how or where you were educated not all schools require SATs and some prefer entrance exams

agreed

Hello skizma,

let's clear one thing up, home schooled children do not pay taxes, the parents do, also I don't believe bigotry has anything to do with this.

skizma you're bordering on hysterical Get over it, people don't agree all the time. Stop calling names and getting angry.

Hi skizma;

By the definition you posted,you yourself displays the characteristics of a bigot, for you are the one who seems to be presenting yourself as "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion".

This is actually what happens in a discussion, people voice their opinion on a subject,it doesn't mean that all people will see eye to eye on everything or every topic, it's called difference of opinion,when that escalates it becomes a debate.

There isn't one person that has displayed any sign of bigotry or prejudice yet you toss those words out when people don't agree with your point of view and those who did not agree w/ your point of view are wrong. Well I find that intolerable but understand as this subject may have a personal interest to you and may have hit a sore spot.

Unfortunately I don't agree with you and I stand by my opinion that parents of home schooled children have made their choice loud and clear that their public school system isn't good enough to educate their children but it is good enough for those student to play sports and I do not believe they should be permitted to do so.

Also, you are correct the public library is open to all as it belongs to the county, not the town, but subject this is not about the usage of buildings.

If a pro athlete was taking an off campus online course for a particular college, should that athlete be permitted to play sports for that school if they so desired?

Nope, just my opinion back. And again, the definition of public is for all. Not a select few. When they stopped the blacks from using public schools and buses etc. what was that? The home school students have every right to use the facilities paid for by their parents, just like the public school children do. With approval.

hello skizma,

As I posted in the beginning of this thread, schools are first and foremost about education,everythnig else is secondary. So if a parent chooses not to enroll their child(ren) in a public school system they electively choose not to utilize the rest of the school's programs.

Athletics and other after school programs are for the students of that school, to generate school spirit,to develop outside interests of school students and to offer alternative venues to grow as part of that schools student body.

Should a home schooled student be permitted to run for class president or any other student body role? No, they are not part of the student body,so they should not be elegible to participate in any after school program as they are not part of the student body or subject to any of the rules or guidelines every other student is.

Misinformed? please elaborate how my OPINION regarding home schooled kids not being allowed to partake in school sports is "misinformed"...

Hello Ken;

I don't think public school sports programs cut players any more. I think the real issue among players is the amount of playing time.

Clamdigger, Players are not cut, team placement is based on ability. The best players are on the Varsity team with most of the playing time, with the others on Junior Varsity who will spend most of their time warming the bench. Ken, nasty comments are coming from both sides and if this is the reaction from adults, how do you think the kids will react? There are many recreation programs in Brick for sports, but they usually end when the kids reach high school age. The only way for the home schooled child to continue playing is to be part of the public school program. The rules allowing this to happen have to make sure there is no unfair advantages, and they need to be the same for ALL schools. How fair would it be to the Brick teams if home schooled kids playing for another team do not have to follow the same rules, and lose the State title because of it? Towns like Toms River have 3 high schools and regional high schools bring in students from several towns. How will it be determined what team they can play for? Eligibility standards need to be in place before the home schooled kids join the team.

Show me where I was "nasty". By saying "little darlings"? yeah, that was brutal....
By the way, my youngest is 28 yrs old, I'm waaaaay past the kids in school phase.
When my kids were in (the Toms River) schools, we didn't have ANY home schooled kids, unless they were being tutored at home for health reasons. This is all a fairly new trend here in the east, and like clamdigger said, If you (willingly) pull your kids out of school, they are out of school. They should not be allowed to pick and choose what other activities they want to participate in. In or Out. period.
That's my opinion. There are also insurance issues to contend with.... non-students playing on school property on school teams can create problems if someone gets hurt, etc.

clamdigger, I do not know about Brick, but in Toms River they do have cuts in sports. Lori actually JV players have their own team and games so many of them play the whole entire game of whatever sport, but if they are swing players they may not play a lot of time on the Varsity team and do most of their playing on the JV team. Of course on all levels you will have players who play whole games and some who play none or next to no time in a game. While most of it has to do with talent and ability a lot of it has to do with nepotism. Again I do not know about Brick again I am talkinga bout how things are in Toms River Schools

I recall that ALL students needed at least a C in all major classes if they didn't want to be suspended from the (school) team until the next marking period. I have nephews currently in school and on school sports teams (Intermediate and high school) and I know this is still true for them

you are all WRONG. Students not only can but DO fail courses while playing a sport and continue to play. So stop using that as your false basis. The only difference with home school and public attendence, is that there is something in writing. THAT does NOT mean it's adhered to. MANY MANY kids do FAIL and continue to play. NO they are not suspended. Some are suspended but for ONE game. Until they show a passing quiz or hand in their homework. NO WAY are all athletes passing. And, athletes can have disciplinary problems and PLAY. I'd take a home schooled student that has a great attitude and a good team spirit over any of the spoiled bigheaded public school attendees any time. just FYI. This allowing failing and poorly performing and poor disciplinary students is constant occurrance. The covering up and special exceptions for public school attendees is atrocious. The only difference is that there is a policy...NOT that the policy is ENFORCED and followed.

Unfortunately Mattie, students are allowed to fail and play. Students are allowed to have been issued a summons for destruction of school property....the same property they play sports on....and continue to play. that's what really happens. That is in our public schools. The character of the players is allowed to slip and slide for the sake of the team getting a win or the player playing. (in some cases, who mom or dad are so they are not embarrassed etc.) Unfortunately that is how it is done. Failing student players are allowed to keep playing after handing in a homework, or an assignment and getting a passing grade on it. All, of course, within the time they need to play the next game. Then they are OK'd. That is how it happens in real everyday life. I believe also that they should be passing. Period. I believe they should NOT have any discipline actions against them. But they can and do and are allowed to play. Even though you may think the policy states otherwise, the way it's handled in an everyday circumstance is not the way you think. My children all played varsity sports for while in hs, but, all along saw other players play while failing or having discipline actions against them. So, the rules really don't make a difference unfortunately. I have a bigger beef with lax enforcement of the public school rules than allowing a home schooled student to play if he makes it. No big deal. None.

Denise, There is also one major issue that needs to be considered before home schooled kids are allowed to play in school sports- the student athletes that are on the team now. How receptive will they be when someone that they do not know or go to school with joins the team? Will they accept them or ask why are they allowed on the team if they don't go to school? I think there will be a problem, especially if someone who has been working for 2 or 3 years to earn a varsity spot is bumped by someone they don't go to school with.

So you are judging ALL home schooled NJ kids on the basis of ONE website? Paining with a pretty broad brush, aren't we?

No Shore, I'm just showing how the home schooling rules and regs are VERY lax in NJ. I'm sure there are some much better home schooling parents around, and probably some much worse. Everyone seems to be under the impression home schooling "is the same" as public schooling, and the level of testing and educational requirements are met by home school students -- because "its the law".
I was also under that impression until I researched it. That is simply not true in NJ.
No brush used.

So let me finish that point about the home schooling in NJ:
If home schooled kids do not have to meet ANY academic requirements to be included on any school sports team (in other words, keeping a "C" or above in every non-elective subject) like the kids attending school every day, why should that be OK? If a home school kid can get away with a mere hour or two of school work every day (or even less) and compete for spots on teams where regular school attending kids have hours and hours of school work and class time surrounding their sports time- how is that fair? I think these are the points I and a few others raised and IMO opinion they are legitimate concerns.

Tim Tebow is one.

Good examples and well said, Speedz. Nice to read a few more rational comments instead of irrational, emotional rants.

I never made any comments about home schooled children doing better then public school children. I have only been saying I think they should have the right to go out for school teams if they really want to. If they make the team fine and if they get cut that is fine too. Also everyone keeps bringing up club teams, well there are not club teams for every sport in the area and if the sport you child wants to play there is one, some are very expensive. I love the arguing here when chances are at best you might have a handful of home schooled children try out for a school sport. So what does that come to maybe one or two at most for each sport. I think one of the problems still is the fact that some people feel their little Suzie or little Johnny who is in the school system may get cut from a team beacuse of this. Well not every one can make a team and I think it is better for some of these kids to be cut from teams instead of just sitting on the bench anyway. My children played sports for both school teams and club teams and I used to feel so bad for some of the kids who basically just sat on the bench anyway, of course that was in school teams.

But speedz, you were able to get the permit, right? It was made available to you. That's the point. That's what this is about. A public entity, for which everyone contributes, gives everyone the opportunity to use it. Should the sport be available to all, with no exemption for being different? We can't discriminate against someone different. That's the point. It should be made available, and, if certain criteria needs to be set, then do so, but make it available to the home schooled students as well. Set the criteria, then if they meet it, let them participate if they make it. Even prisoners....convicted of a crime....have rights and they are afforded to them by us. No one forfeits any rights until they have violations against them, such as drivers. you forfeit your license after you have violations. But, you are afforded the right, the opportunity. Set the criteria, then let them apply and try. This is not the same thing as an in school student body election etc. These are extra-curricular, out side of classroom instruction activities. It's healthy, not available in the home school setting, and there are so few who will even be interested. Can you imagine if one has an exceptional skill, the coach sees them....they'll want them to play and will be accepted. I am so surprised at the instant biased and exclusionary attitude toward our own neighbors. Well, again, let them participate if they wish. It's just not a big problem.

Hello Speedz; well said.

Not a problem, just wanted to be sure I never said which was better.

Saving the school system a lot of money...How? How many home schooled kids are there that would require another teacher in a school system? Other than that extreme possibility...the costs would not increase.

Again, It's a choice. Home schooled parents as well as private school parents are choosing under their own free will not to participate in the public education system provided to them and therefore they "lose" their tax money. Too bad.

Hello STF, our tax money also pays for the cops cars in town and dump trucks as well as pick up trucks use by the DPW, does that mean I should be able to stroll there and get one when I need another vehicle or a pick up for the day?

How about a tank use by the U.S. military, just because my tax money pays for that I guess I should be entitled to take one home for the weekend or maybe just drive around Ft.Dix when ever I want.

Our taxes pay for much but we surrender rights for many of them. (IMO) This home school thing is the same principle, parents have made the premeditated decision to keep their children out of any formal education that is offered either publicly or privately. In choosing that decision parents must accept what consequences are involved and being excluded from ALL school related extra-curricular activities is part of that decision.

The school is open, the electric is on, the heat /air conditioning is running, the buses are transporting, the teachers are there, the books are there, the office staff is there, the janitorial staff is there, the coaches are still coaching, etc....kids being home-schooled really don't save any significant amount of money at any specific school. That's a goofy argument.

And as far as your website information goes:

http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/11/1122/2204/

The state has no overall tally -- not even a rough count -- of how many home school students are out there. By some assessments, it is a few thousand. By others, it may be as many as 30,000 to 40,000 -- extrapolating from the national estimate that home school students make up as much as 2 percent of the overall school-aged population.

It's probably only a few thousand, if that many....

Finally, I got it! LOL I tried reading those numbers (above) a dozen different ways....!
Ok, this is ihow it reads:

I looked around for a bit and found this:

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/weblinks/numbers.htm

School Age kids in New Jersey (2009 census) -1,493,469
ESTIMATED home-school kids in NJ: (2010-2011) -- 38,611

This is from a Pro-Home School site so the numbers are most likely over-estimated.
However, there are no other hard-core figures from other sources.

Ken, If the parents are paying school taxes, Vocational school is part of public school education. If a tuition fee is required for a home schooled child, then should there be a participation fee for extra-curricular activities such as sports?

http://www.state.nj.us/education/genfo/faq/faq_homeschool.htm

County Shared-Time Vocational Schools - A vocational board of education should adopt a non-discriminatory policy regarding a child educated elsewhere than at school. If a parent/guardian is a resident of the county, the child educated at home may apply on an annual basis to the county vocational school. The county vocational school may permit the child being educated elsewhere than at school to attend a shared-time county vocational school to the extent that space is available according to N.J.A.C. 6:43-3.11(b). Once a child educated elsewhere than at school is enrolled in a shared-time vocational school program, the child then becomes a public school student and is entitled to the payment of tuition through the resident district.

Correct - anyone out of school pays but schoolagers are non-paying

yes, that is true.

Mattie, A posting by Acamedics was questioning the Vocational school students rights to participate in after school activities. If a home schooled student is considered a "public school" student based on their attendance to Vocational school with home-schooled academics, do they then qualify to participate in after school activities? County shared-time vocational programs consider them public school students to receive tuition payments, does that also make them a public school student in their resident district? I think this is part of the original topic, and something that will need to be addressed. A student should be attending the public school to participate in something that is not part of the state required public education.

I see what you're saying Lori, and I admit the whole vocational school + home schooling (without regular school attendance) thing really opens a can of worms, doesn't it? But I can see how home schoolers would be considered the same as public school "students" in a vocational school classroom, but I still don't see how that would entitle them (Homeschoolers) to avail themselves of any other extra curricular public school activities... and it's my opinion they shouldn't be allowed to.

no my posting a simply saying that these homeschoolers are now goingt o be able to participate in the prom, the plays, newspaper, any club, or activity including graduation. Sounds rediculous but the same principles apply.

Acamedics, The student is attending an out of district school because of special educational needs that they are not able to receive at their home school. When they receive their graduation certificates, is it from the home school.

Absolutely Mark.
In (most) other states, home schooling parents acquire a year's worth of curriculum for the appropriate grade of their kid(s). The kids are expected to learn basically the same non-elective courses as school kids. They even have periodic testing to make sure home schooled kids are on par with school kids.
However, in NEW JERSEY, there is no set curriculum for any grade, there is no obligation to supply the home schooled with books, or lesson plans. They also do not require ANY testing -at any time- to equate the home schooled with school kids or mark their progress. They do not allow home school kids to take the SATs or any other higher education assessment tests along with schooled kids. They do not require, or monitor for, any set amount of time a student should be studying at home. Many other states do, and require detailed lesson plans and minimum study schedules submitted from home schooling parents. But, home schooling in NJ is literally a free for all.
Home schooled kids get No diploma (they can test for a GED like any other drop out or kid/adult who for some reason couldn't finish high school). These are reasons I believe it's unfair to allow home school kids to compete for and on public school-connected teams. AND I also believe a home schooling parent should have at least 2 years of college to home school.

I'm going to clear it up even further:
"They do not allow home school kids to take the SATs or any other higher education assessment tests along with schooled kids. "
"They" meaning the Public School does not allow or include home schooled kids to come in and prepare or take the SATs along with the schooled kids. Because public school kids do spend some time as a group preparing for SATs, don't they?
That's what I meant, sorry for any confusion.

And yes, home schooling, in NEW JERSEY, IS a Free-for-all.
Home schooling in NJ is only as good as the parent(s) teaching at home.
NJ doesn't give two figs how or what or when you teach a home school kid anything. You could be sitting there 4 hours a day reading from the Bible, or from Dr. Seuss books, or doing crossword puzzles; no one checks, no one tests, and no one cares... The only time a public school will test a home schooler is if and when they wish to rejoin a public school class.
I am not making this up. NJ has essentially NO guidelines, materials or requirements for home schooling. That is a fact.

I meant that they are not prepared for, or scheduled to, take the SATs *along with schooled kids*. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I did not intentionally make a false statement.
All my information in that post and most of my other posts comes directly from NJ gov./ school websites and Home Schooling in NJ websites. (links were included)

Additional comment: As for your numbers posted above, I did not dispute them, I acknowledged that I found the same numbers on another site and finally understood what they meant. Those same numbers are used by many sites, however, they all admit that they are estimates and/or self-reported (census type) estimates. The state of NJ doesn't keep track of how many home schooled kids there are, but they don't conclude it's in the 30 thousands, either.

I'd like to make one other thing clear; I have nothing against home schooling.
I don't care if you (you, being figurative) home school, I don't care if you hate the public schools, I don't care if you want to indoctrinate your kids with religion - that they can't get in public schools, I really don't. That's your choice, so go for it.

I just don't think any home schooling parent should then be allowed to pick and choose among other public school social activities or sports a la cart for their kids.
You are either IN or OUT. That's my Opinion.

Any of them home schooled in NJ?

I'm honestly not sure what your post is trying to say, but anyone in the Olympics gets their Olympic training outside of public school and it doesn't matter how they were educated- public school, private or home school. The Olympic sports in which these athletes play are not the usual public school sports.
None of the athletes you mention are involved in a sport that they started out playing in high school, with perhaps the exception of Mike Beasley. So I looked him up. They don't mention him being a home schooled kid. They DO mention that he "moved around a lot during high school..." and how now he's headed to rehab for drugs and trouble with the law. (not his first time, either). Beasley's not a terrific example, Kat... I would reconsider that one.
Sam Warren may have been home schooled for most of his school years, but he was a senior in a public (or private?) school when he was considered for the University of Virginia. More than likely that's exactly WHY he went to regular school for his senior year- a better chance to be accepted onto a sports team for a University. Just sayin'

Yes, I get it... someone asked about pro athletes. I don't think they meant Olympic athletes, but that's neither here nor there. I still don't see what the connection is to the topic of our NJ schools allowing home-schooled kids to play public school sports and/ or avail themselves of other school social activities...

You are so right about the nepotism, but whether there are cuts or not amny players will still sit the bench so that someone else with connections can play more. These coaches would sooner lose games than upset someone with connections. I do disagree a little with one thing though. The student does not have to be related to just a teacher of BOE member, they just need to be related to someone with connections even if outside the school system. Also helps if they are related to a politicans or someone well known in the area or even someone who is or was a coach for a team outside of school. Especially if that coach had been a coach to whoever is coaching now. I am not sure which town you are from, but this goes on constantly in Toms River.

Sorry, but it is your choice to do that. If you want him to play football pick a school that has a team or go to a public school. Plenty of private schools have teams.